ethical ruminations

thank you

im going through an episode, i don't know how much i can help you because i lack the answers, but you can vent if you want

@Nameless000 Wanna talk about it? (Maybe not too detailed though lol) But I think I'm doing better today, want some tips maybe?

@Arya age oh if you have tips it would be gladly appreciated thank you

@Nameless000 Okay well I firstly discovered that it's normal to question morals, OCD just just jumps to the worst case scenario. And that the first thing to always remember. Then what I do is actively choose to remove the fear, view your thoughts and notice the compelling arguments without arguing with them be like "okay, I hear you" but stay calm and remember it's all in your head. Then, actively watch videos that speak about the topic but in a different light (the desired perspective) and don't force yourself to believe whatever is said immediately but listen calmly and expand their arguments e.g I've been watching videos on x (which is a moaraly wrong concept, I don't wanna use an actual example because it might trigger you...) and I'd just learn about it and see the different perspectives about it. Then I remind myself of those conversations around x and how that conversation aligns with the moral compass I am building. I also must say the idea that morals/ethics are made up isn't scary when you look at it from a humanistic approach. Humanism is a belief that humans are inherently good but then good is subjective right? But hear me out. If "good" is subjective then that must mean "good" isn't based on actions but it's a principle. I see the idea of "good" as the humanistic decision to build towards a world that not only considers the masses but the individual. So with the moral dilemma I'm facing I've come to a beautiful explanation (for myself) of what morals are. We might say they are made up, but not that they are unnecessary and what is deemed as "bad" is deemed as bad because it takes away consideration for the individuals within a society. (Even with this in mind I still have a whole moral dilemma issue going on but it's getting better cause the questions that used to scare me don't scare me anymore, well some of them...) But yeah, do you have any realisations you have discovered?

@Arya age By saying morals aren't so much about action I mean actions are framed morally inaccurate because of the principle of what being good is. So yes actions can be morally good or bad but it's understanding that morality being rooted in a humanistic approach is what helps us see if an action is morally inaccurate or not. Just for clarity (please tell me if that doesn't make sense)

@Arya age @Arya age one of the realisations that i discovered is the mathematical approach of "condition of existence" (existence theorem) for intrusive images: in mathematics, an existence theorem is a theorem which asserts the existence of a certain object. It might be a statement which begins with the phrase "there exist", or it might be a universal statement whose last quantifier is existential, I believe our brain work in the same way when considering triggering what ifs and immoral questions and doubts over moral dogmas.

@Arya age I used ChatGPT to help me formulate my thoughts about this: Imagine you're building a world—whether it's a fictional universe, a mental construct, or even a hypothetical scenario in your head. Certain ideas, rules, or conditions must exist within that world simply because the framework demands them. These are "existence conditions"—things that are not necessarily true in an objective sense, but they are true within the given structure because that structure wouldn't function without them. Take a fantasy world where magic exists. You could declare that "magic replenishes at midnight." This isn’t an empirical fact in our world, but within that fictional reality, it becomes an inherent rule—an existence condition that defines how magic works. The world itself necessitates this rule in order to be internally consistent. Now, shift that thinking to how the mind processes thoughts, especially intrusive "what if" thoughts. When your brain generates an unsettling scenario, it can impose an existence condition onto that scenario—something like, "What if this terrifying thought is true?" Even if the thought is irrational, your mind treats it as if it must be entertained seriously within that mental framework. The constructed scenario forces a sense of "truth" within its own logic, making the thought feel disturbingly valid. This is where it overlaps with psychology, particularly obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and intrusive thinking. People with OCD often experience thoughts that feel unshakably real, not because they actually reflect reality, but because their minds are caught in a loop where doubt itself becomes an existence condition. The more the thought is examined, the more it insists on being analyzed—fueling the anxiety and reinforcing its perceived validity. Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) works by breaking this cycle. Instead of trying to "disprove" intrusive thoughts (which can reinforce them), CBT helps people recognize that the mind can generate false alarms—mental constructions that feel real but aren’t necessarily grounded in reality. The key is understanding that just because a thought exists, it doesn't mean it carries weight outside the mental framework that created it. So, in a way, your mind constructs its own "realities" at times, and certain thoughts feel inescapably valid because they are built on the rules that your own cognition has imposed. Recognizing this can be the first step toward loosening the grip of intrusive thoughts and regaining a sense of control.

@Arya age Imagine you have a deeply held belief—something you take for granted as fundamentally true, let's use “Stealing is wrong" (as it is less triggering). This belief exists as part of your moral framework, shaping how you understand right and wrong. It’s an existence condition within your worldview, meaning that the structure of your moral understanding assumes it to be true. Now, suppose a thought intrudes: “What if stealing isn’t wrong?” The moment your mind entertains this, it doesn’t just stay as an abstract question—it starts constructing a version of reality where that statement holds. Your brain, in its natural way of modeling possibilities, begins generating a world in which stealing isn’t wrong. It adjusts the rules, reshapes consequences, and shows you what that reality would look like. And because your mind is so good at simulating possibilities, this alternate reality doesn’t feel like a distant hypothetical—it feels real, valid, and possible. Even if, deep down, you know you don’t believe it, the fact that your mind can construct this world so vividly makes it feel like it’s forcing itself upon you. That’s where the fear sets in. It’s not just the question that’s unsettling—it’s the fact that your brain just showed you a world where the question makes sense. This experience is common in people who struggle with intrusive thoughts, especially in the realm of morality and existential doubt. It’s a key part of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), particularly in moral scrupulosity, where the mind fixates on these “What if X isn’t wrong?” thoughts, treating them as if they demand serious consideration. The fear doesn’t come from actually believing the thought but from the sheer plausibility of the mental model your brain just created. Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) works with this exact issue. Instead of trying to argue with every unsettling “What if X isn’t wrong?” thought (which only strengthens the loop), CBT helps people recognize that the mind is simply capable of constructing alternative realities—but that doesn’t make them real. The fact that your brain can imagine a world where stealing isn’t wrong doesn’t mean it reflects actual truth; it only means your brain is good at simulating scenarios. Understanding this can help break the cycle of fear. Just because your mind shows you a version of reality where something unsettling seems valid doesn’t mean it is. The ability to imagine a possibility isn’t proof of its truth—just proof of how powerful your mind is at constructing worlds, whether they align with reality or not.

@Nameless000 Beautiful! I'll definitely be learning about this some more👍

@Nameless000 I love this explaition wth!! Thanks for sharing this

I felt like i wasn't disgusted enough about that question, and i don't remember anymore if i was trying to go against that question or maybe trying to play the devil's advocate. I don't remember anymore what voice was mine. I'm trying to remember but it triggers me. Maybe I was trying to recollect if there was a particular istance it happened in movies. I'm overthinking. I think I remember this costant voice about "why is that bad though" and not being able to give a clear answer while falling through that rabbit hole and it triggered me a lot.

@Nameless000 maybe i couldn't find an answer because it was a dogma for me in my beliefs and that intrusive uncomfortable voice trying to question it made me triggered as a whole. But the fact that my mind went there deeply disturbs me.

@Nameless000 i think at the end those disturbing questions that kept appearing were simply intrusive thoughts that disrupted me. Questions that i don't want to have. I just know i didn't want to have such questions or anything related to that evil matter. But I'm confronted with it every day because it's my main theme and i cant escape it.

nope lol and that explains a lot

@Nameless000 Bro😭 I wanna start therapy so bad but I can't afford it aarg